How to direct a documentary film with guest Mike Hill, Impact Documentary Filmmaker Ep96

“...one of the beauties that I’ve experienced in making documentary films over 20 years, is that what you get, is usually better than what you imagine.”
- a little pearl from Mike Hill, Director, Impact Filmmaker and special guest on this week's Moonshine Moonshot podcast.

This ep dives into Mike's unique approach to directing, and how trusting in the filmmaking process can often lead to unexpected and powerful outcomes.
Listen now and you'll be inspired to follow your instincts and get curious on your filmmaking journey!

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to the Moonshine Moonshot Podcast. I'm your host, Sue Collins, and if you've landed here, it means you're wanting to find out more about how to make filmmaking a sustainable career. And you're also curious about how to make meaningful work that fills your cup. You're ready to learn how to make movies that matter, build a sustainable career, and have a positive impact on your audiences. So you are in the right place. Filmmaking has so many parts, and I'm sharing what I've learned over the past 15 years producing impact films that reach their intended audience and support real-world change. So let's get started. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Moonshine Moonshot Podcast. I have something special for you today. I am here with my partner in all things and co-producer and director Mike Hill. Welcome, Mike. Hello, hello, hello.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

It's great to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

So I thought what would be really fun today, Mike, is um less of a producing conversation around documentaries and more from a director's perspective on how do we put our films together and how do you go about your process? So the way you um direct films is quite different to a lot of traditional style documentaries. So perhaps you could just talk us a little bit around how you like to go about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Look, I think you know, everyone's different in terms of their filmmaking process. So there's no right way to go about it. Um but I would say this: one of the beauties that I've experienced in making documentary films over now over 20 years is that what you get is usually better than what you imagine. Which means that if you set out to write something and then follow that script uh to the letter, I would argue that it won't be as good as what you will get if you follow your nose.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Yeah, it's an interesting thing with documentary, isn't it? You can't really write a film. And that's always tricky because so often when you're in that development phase and you're trying to get finance, you kind of have to in some way articulate what you're intending to do. So how would you tackle that if it's not a written document?

SPEAKER_02 2:26

I think it's inevitable that you do need to write something. And what I've found over the years is I typically write something that's more about the argument the film's making. So it's more topical in terms of the ground it's going to cover and and how it might come to life, but not write down to the detail of particular sequences or trying to anticipate what people will say. And maybe this is a limit to my own writing ability that I'm not able to, you know, predict what people will say to the level that they do, you know, that provides that great insight that you end up with in the final film. So I've abandoned that as a strategy, sort of writing out my whole film as an extended treatment, for example. So I'll keep it more at a summary level and I will make a proof of concept film, which means I'll get out there into the field and I will film with participants to get a sample of what the final product's gonna be like. And that's probably more important than anything I write.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

And as a producer on films with you, I know with our work, we we are often rolling camera and filming stories well before that first trace of funding actually comes in. So there is a little bit of um got to do a bit of work before the money comes, but then you kind of have a proof of concept and if anything that unlocks a lot of funding because you can really show people what you're trying to prove through your film or what you're trying to achieve with your film.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Yeah, and I don't think it actually stops just after you start getting funding into your project. I think you need to take that leap of faith over and over and over again. And this is something that I've learned over time, and I'm sure you feel the same. If we wait until all of the finance is into the project, we might be waiting for a very long time. We might be waiting forever before we can get started. But there's a real power to making. So if you're able to make and start providing proofs of concept about the material that you're creating as you go along, yeah, initially it's some kind of pitch video or teaser. But then as you're even going through production, it's like different sequences or participants and highlighting the quality of the work, why it's of interest value, why it's going to get the job done. That's so important to accelerating uh the time it takes to get your film produced and out there to your audience.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

And I think one thing that's quite interesting with what you're saying there is that it's that as you go along that the story unfolds. Because unless you're telling a retrospective story or um you're using a lot of archival footage to tell a story, you know, like it could be a film about World War II or something that's in the past it's happened, and you're now creating a film from that. But our films are stories that are unfolding as we go. So I don't even know how you could, at the very inception of an idea, know what the outcome's gonna be. Because isn't that the point to the documentary? Is exploring the topic?

SPEAKER_02 5:34

I think so, yeah. But that's a philosophical position. There are plenty of documentary filmmakers who, as you say, work with archival materials. And I think you always need to find films in post-production. Um, but there's a much more predictable path that that narrative might take compared to an observational piece or you know, something that's unfolding longitudinally, or even almost any documentary that I've ever worked on, to be honest. So you need to have faith that what you're gonna go out there and capture is gonna be better than what you can imagine. And I find that that faith is well founded. Uh, but being a curious person and being out there on a journey of discovery is gonna make your film better than going out there with a prescribed set of messages or questions that you're gonna ask. It's not a box-checking exercise. Your job is to bring this topic to the screen in the most interesting way you can. And to achieve that, you need to be a curious person out there in the world with your camera.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

And so, with that, so the the style of films that that we make and you direct are often have quite a number of interviewees, a huge number of participants, and follow quite a few different stories, often stories from not just different locations, like as in a city and a regional location, but actually foreign countries or um in different languages, like they they go far, far and wide to tell the story. So, how do you, as a director, how do you tackle that from a storytelling perspective? How do you link all these things together?

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Well, I'll start by saying you will feel overwhelmed. And you should feel overwhelmed. As you come towards the end of your production process, as you start entering your post-production process, the amount of material you've captured will feel overwhelming. You know, I think that's a normal feeling that you need to embrace and you need to be part of the process. I recently went to an exhibition, a Leonardo da Vinci exhibition, you know, and understanding Leonardo's process is really interesting. You know, of course he had a concept for what his masterpieces would turn out like, you know, and he would sketch these ideas and he would actually sketch onto, you know, the mediums that he was painting on. Um, but then it would change and develop and continue to develop layer on layer on layer on layer, year after year after year after year. And the filmmaking process for documentaries is similar to that. You know, it's not all predictable and it doesn't necessarily happen quickly. Uh, it's a process of looking at the big picture and the small detail and zooming in and out constantly and refining and refining and refining and refining until you get the great film at the end. So you've got to go with the flow on that.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

So let's break it down a little bit for this audience who are presumably listening because they're actually trying to learn more about the craft and be able to apply some of the things that you're talking about to their own work. So let's say, let's imagine we're at the point where you've captured everything that you're going to capture, you've done all your production, and now you are in the edit process. So just talk me through how do you actually start? Is there a method or a structure to how you might go about beginning the post-production?

SPEAKER_02 9:02

In any complicated narrative that I've ever been involved in developing, either to bring to the screen or writing a screenplay, you know, which is more of a narrative form, I've always found that index cards are an invaluable tool. So those cards that you write up, ideas for sequences are going to be critical building blocks to the process, and they're going to help you not get too lost in the process. But the caveat is you'll always feel lost in this part of the process. But what you're trying to do is organize your thoughts and organize your argument at this point. And some of those building blocks will be really evident to you straight away. You will know 100% for sure that participant A has to be in your film because it was magnificent when you filmed it and it's just going to be a part of your film nowhere matter what. There's going to be a lot of other material that you're not quite sure where it fits and how it fits and you know how the puzzle's going to come together. So you write up your index cards. Some of them are going to be more conceptual about ideas that you're trying to get across. Some of them are going to be more emotional about the emotional impact of a particular story. And you're going to start putting these on the wall and reorganizing them and, you know, fashioning the flow of ideas in paper form. And that's really going to help you and your editor get on the same page. This is best done whilst marinating yourself in the material because as you get into the material and you're watching rushes, you're going to find gold. And that's a prospecting exercise. You're going through and you're looking for the gold all the time. And you are documenting that onto an index card, and then you're trying to figure out in what order that best comes together to make your film as great as it can be.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Oh, I was just looking for a place where I could learn everything I need to know to make an amazing film that changes the world. It's such a shame that that place doesn't exist. Oh what? Hang on. It does. Oh, if you're looking for inspiration, ideas, tools, and ways to learn how to make movies that matter, head to Moonshine Communications Academy over at Instagram and all your problems will be solved.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Warning, results may vary depending on the questions, and success is not guaranteed. Always read the label.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

And how do you go about working with an editor? So I guess a lot of filmmakers actually directors do edit their own work. Have you ever done it that way or have you always worked with an editor?

SPEAKER_02 11:38

I've always been very, very lucky to be able to work with editors. Now I'm a pretty hands-on filmmaker and I like doing a lot of things in the process. But editing's one where I think there's a real value in having another person, you know, to ref you know, to bounce ideas off to work with. And sometimes it's more than one editor that you're working with as well. So I find that particularly helpful. A lot of the editors that I've worked with take a radio play approach to sort of nutting out, you know, where the story might go. And by radio play, I mean rather than working with all of the visual material necessarily, they're working with the building blocks of the information, you know, that needs to come across to the audience. So that may seem a little dull at first, because it might mean you have more talking heads than you will in the final product. And it might mean you have blocks of narration which have just kind of been roughed in by the editor just to give a sense of how ideas come together. But where it comes in handy is it really gives you a sense of whether this idea flow is going to work or not and whether the story's building in the way that you're hoping it will or not. And then you can refine it, you know, and try different ideas and go from there. Uh so the you know, the visual storytelling part often comes later in the process. I love the visual storytelling part. Sometimes I'll really insist to editors that this visual that we've got, I want it in there from the start because that's gonna speak louder than anyone uh can, you know, in the words that they share with us. But uh, you know, that's a bit of the push and pull that happens during that creative process.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

And so with this creative process, if you know, thinking, you know, obviously obviously things always come back to budget and time. So if you were going to be putting a documentary together and you know the style of film that you're making and roughly how much footage you're gonna capture in that production process, how would you plan out how long the post-production process would be? How long would you need to engage that that editor to work with you on it?

SPEAKER_02 13:51

That is a difficult question to answer because there's no formula and films are different in that way. Some films are much more minimalist, you know, they might have just one single participant telling their whole story with supporting material. They might be a lot more contained in that way, and other films will be much more far-reaching. So there is no single answer for that. Um, but either way, you're locked in for some months of work with your editor in post-production. And the more moving parts there are, the more time you need to add to that.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Yeah, and I I I don't know if you can, as you say, it's it dependent on each film is unique and different. But realistically, I would say with pretty much all the feature docs that we've produced, they've taken between 16 and 24 weeks of uh senior editor's time. Do you think that's reasonable?

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Yeah, look, I think that's the producer coming out in you. And I think that's really helpful having those guides so that it's not just this endless, you know, kind of pit of time. You know, that's an achievable amount of time to produce something to a higher level.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

And I think you have to put some parameters around it because, you know, it is that whole you can just keep tinkering with something over and over, and it can take months and months and months because, you know, work expands to the time you allow for it. So do you find it's better to say, I want to cut this film and have, you know, the final version ready to go into, you know, I d I don't know, um, cinema, you know, in 16 weeks?

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Well, I use Leonardo as an example before, and he was kind of infamous for not finishing his works, you know, even some of his greatest works he would be carrying around with him for years after they'd been commissioned and tinkering with them. And that is not a great way to make a living as a filmmaker. So deadlines are our friend. Uh, and I think you do need to put a limit on these things.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

I'm so glad you said I was worried you were going to say that you were gonna follow in Leonardo's footsteps there, and as your producer, I advise against it.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

You know, I I don't think we have that luxury, and I'm not sure I'd want it either. Like, I think there's a natural amount of time that, you know, is right to dedicate to a project, and there is a real risk of overcooking a film. You know, I I think you can overdo it, so you can't spend too much time on it.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

And when it comes to, you know, that creative vision with things like um I guess getting into the more stylistic approach, you know, would you know before you got into the edit suede if you want it to be a really fast-paced film or if you want it to be really um immersive or how much the score is gonna play into the way the edit comes together? You know, tell talk me through a bit of those decision-making things.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Well, I I think tempo is a really important thing to keep in mind in terms of post-production. So having a sense of the tempo of your film will be really helpful. Is it gonna be a slow burn uh or is it gonna be fast-paced? Is it gonna be a mixture of both? Uh the music will also relate to the tempo. So if there's some music, uh if you're that type of filmmaker and you find music helpful, uh knocking out a playlist that you feel somehow resonates with the story you're telling could be a really useful exercise because it'll give the editor something to work with in terms of pacing. So yeah, I think bringing those ideas to the early stage of post-production is useful.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

And while we're just talking about the post-production process from a director's perspective, is there anything else you think would be really useful for someone kind of heading into that process for maybe the first time?

SPEAKER_02 17:33

You it it's an amazing thing because you're seeing your film come together and it can be a really special time. Um, I think for a lot of filmmakers, particularly uh first, second-time filmmakers, it's a really hard process because you can easily get lost in it. You know, you're gonna feel lost in the woods and just ask yourself, do I have a film here? Is this actually gonna come together? And you really need to have faith in yourself and and just have faith in the process, you know, just keep powering through. Use some of those tools that we've talked about today, um, and you will get there and it'll be worth it.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

And is knowing the output for your film really important? So, for example, what through this whole conversation, we've really been talking about creating feature documentaries which potentially would go for a theatrical release or um festivals or you know, somewhere suitable for a feature-length documentary. But what if you needed to do a version that was only say, you know, 54 minutes for broadcast television? Do you need to know that right at the start of that edit process, or is that something that you can version later on?

SPEAKER_02 18:47

You need to know. You need to know what your longest duration is. I think it's like running a marathon. You know, if you're gonna run a marathon, you need to prepare to run that, you know, 42.2 kilometres or whatever it is. Uh and then it's gonna be easier to do your shorter distances and you know, you know, how you're gonna modify to do that shorter version, and it's the same with filmmaking. So you need to identify what's your longest output, start with that, and then chisel down to your shorter versions.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

And if you've previously created a short version documentary, say like a half-hour doco, is it a big leap to go from producing a short form piece of content to now producing a feature film, or is it all the same principles apply?

SPEAKER_02 19:33

No, I I wouldn't say they are the same types of filmmaking, um, particularly for shorter form docos, 12 minutes or under. You know, they tend to be more contained in terms of the amount of production and the you know, the narrative arcs are less complicated, and that's where many of us start. It's a really valid form of documentary filmmaking. It's gonna be a big step up to go to that short form documentary 30 to 40 minutes, which has a lot more moving parts in it. Um, and again, it's gonna be a pretty big step up to go to feature documentaries which tend to be, from a narrative perspective, much more complex again. So, yeah, they are not uh the same, but they are evolutions of one another.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

You spoke earlier um about Leonardo da Vinci being a source of inspiration. Is there any documentary filmmakers that you draw inspiration from in your own work?

SPEAKER_02 20:31

Oh, look, I've always loved Errol Morris. I think he's, you know, a real innovator, has been for so many decades uh in terms of you know, having really novel and innovative approaches to bringing documentaries to the screen. So that would be one that stands out. But you know, there are so many great documentaries out there, and I think as documentary filmmakers, we really are kindred spirits. I think there's a real uh camaraderie that happens between people who decide to do this work for a living, and um we really need to support each other through that.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Well, thanks for coming on the show today and sharing your thoughts as a director, a documentary director with many films under your belt. Um, it's been great to have you here, and I guess what would be really helpful from the audience is um if there are questions that you have, we can absolutely follow up to answer them. So please DM us over on Moonshine Communications Academy on whatever social platform you're on. I think we're on pretty much most of them, but generally Instagram, Facebook, or you can reach out through the website if you um wanted to email us. So that was at Moonshine Communications Academy, and um we look forward to hearing some uh questions from the audience. Thanks for being on the show, Mike.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Absolute pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Thank you for joining me today and every week here on the Moonshine Moonshot Podcast. If you're wanting a deeper dive into the topics being discussed on the show, then I would encourage you to head over to Moonshine Communications Academy.com and sign up for the weekly drop of moonshine via your email. Being on our newsletter community means we can support your filmmaking journey in a more tailored way as well as keeping you up to date with the resources we share on how to make movies that matter and so much more that we deliver inside your inbox every single week. So head over to Moonshine CommunicationsAcademy.com and at the bottom of the homepage you'll see a little box to add your email address, and as a thank you for signing up, we'll also send you a bonus ebook to support your messaging. So voila, you'll be on the way to receive all the best content weekly.